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Darth Gustav
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Posted - 2013.02.04 17:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Eric Ryan wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
Geez, in 45min this morning I had made 250mil already
Hate to burst your bubble but after he logs them he should be able to pull over 800 mil per hour. Everyday. All day. Good luck keeping pace with that with your 250 million.
No he doesn't. He drives the price of his ice flavor of choice further day by day, lowering his own real income considerably.
That said, your statement's truthiness is apparent. Until the ice market bottoms out, he makes lots of ISK.
He also devalues ice mining as a profession for incoming rookies.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2154
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Posted - 2013.02.04 19:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Demolishar wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:The Wis wrote:Gogela wrote:I can't believe this is allowed  ..... Why would it not be allowed. Look at what CCP makes. Plex's are not seeded in the game someone had to pay real money for them. So CCP makes about $20,000 a year off me alone. Why would they not allow that? Because then it becomes a "pay-to-win" game. It's not CCP that allows it, it's the players, and not just on this game. Gamers all over are falling for this crap and allowing it to perpetuate, and even propagating it by continuing to do nothing about it. If too many people try to "pay to win", the PLEX price drops too low and it becomes less attractive, causing people to grind in game for their ISK. It's a nice and self regulating system that is governed only by what players are willing to tolerate. Put your money where your mouth is and stop paying your PLEX each month if you want to see the "p2w crowd" getting less value for their money, and perhaps being dissuaded from such activities. No because you and I both know that won't solve anything. The REAL solution is making life miserable for miners with too many accounts :D
No.
The real solution is for CCP to consider the properties that impart value to virtual commodities when they make any change whatsoever to Eve Online:
Value = Demand / Supply
That is the "real" solution.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2155
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Posted - 2013.02.04 20:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Eric Ryan wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Eric Ryan wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:
Geez, in 45min this morning I had made 250mil already
Hate to burst your bubble but after he logs them he should be able to pull over 800 mil per hour. Everyday. All day. Good luck keeping pace with that with your 250 million. No he doesn't. Whether he actually does I don't know but it is perfectly possible with the number of accounts he has and current ice prices. Do the math. Also he has been doing this for quite some time now and ice pretty much stays at same price so demand is still capable to eat it up. I wouldn't be surprised if he was sitting on more than trillion ISK. Maybe two.
No, ice does not stay the same price.
It has dropped considerably in price since the Exhumer and Barge "buffs."
You can view a price history on any market to see that I am correct.
That The Wis has been doing this since before the buffs does not change the fact that he is a major contributor to the devaluation of ice products as a whole.
In short, he is mining himself and all other ice miners (including those in the foreseeable future) into serious pay cuts.
Thanks for your reply.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2156
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 20:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Eric Ryan wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:
No, ice does not stay the same price.
It has dropped considerably in price since the Exhumer and Barge "buffs."
You can view a price history on any market to see that I am correct.
That The Wis has been doing this since before the buffs does not change the fact that he is a major contributor to the devaluation of ice products as a whole.
In short, he is mining himself and all other ice miners (including those in the foreseeable future) into serious pay cuts.
Thanks for your reply.
Clear icicle..the one he mines is at 120k-130k mark for several weeks if not months now. Blue ice for example seems to have stabilized between 140k-150k after the drop from the last mini goon intredcition. Whether it's because he stopped selling most of the ice I don't know.
You seem to imply the Goon interdiction was good for business. Good on you.
That prices went up during that event should be an indicator to you that what I'm saying is absolutely true.
By creating a glut of ice supplies, The Wis hands out pay cuts to everybody who mines alongside him.
Only by limiting the intake of supply can CCP truly "buff mining" as a profession. The exhumer and barge buffs didn't accomplish that. What they did accomplish is making it easier for The Wis and miners aspiring to be just like him to devalue ice mining as an entire profession.
By the way, what were the prices of those ice products before the barge and exhumer buffs?
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2156
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 21:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Eric Ryan wrote:As far as ice mining income goes the buff actually buffed it in a way since even though the prices fell rapidly you are now capable of mining significantly larger piles. You pretty much don't have to pay any attention and just keep it running all the time as long as you are at home. So even though the price is lower your net income grew.
OK I want you to analyze what you wrote here. It may look fine at first glance, but you've commited a pretty grave logical fallacy.
You said that even though prices fell rapidly we are now capable of mining significantly larger piles. That's fine.
But you're stating this is true in spite of the drop in prices, not directly resulting in the drop in prices.
There is literally no way this can be true. Nobody got a pay raise. The job of mining ice may have gotten easier, barges and exhumers may (mostly) mine at a faster pace today than they did last year. But the supply glut that was created by reducing both the temporal barrier to acquisition and the manageability barrier to the acquisition of resources most assuredly is devaluing the profession of ice mining as a whole.
In October of 2012 blue ice sold for around 323k. In February of 2013 it is selling for about 149k. Unless you're claiming you can mine more than twice as muck ice per account, you are dead wrong about the barge and exhumer "buffs" being a "buff" to the ice mining profession. Clearly the value of typical ice products has been reduced by more than a factor of two.
With this in mind, I fail to see how playstyles such as The Wis' should be acceptable gameplay. That's because a solid case can be made for his behavior having a negative impact on people who haven't even started playing Eve yet.
That's a kind of griefing that's insidious precisely because it appears so innocent and innocuous.
Edit: Source: http://www.eve-markets.net/detail.php?typeid=16264#history
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2156
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Posted - 2013.02.04 21:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
Eric Ryan wrote:Yes the pay per hour of ice mining dropped so in that regard you are being payed less but my point is you are capable of mining for longer time as in you as human player. You can mine for 12 hours on weekdays. Easy. No problem. With old mechanics this was extremly tedious and demanding on you as human being.
So yeah the prices dropped also the amount of ice mined per hour dropped but changes to barges allowed you as human to do the activity for longer times hence recouping the loss inflicted on you through drop in price and amount mined. You can drop macks in the field and go to shop, walk a dog, watch episode of a tv show...you get the point. You don't need to sit at the comupter for 12 hours to mine for 12 hours. You just need 24 breaks of about 3 minutes for the entire day to reset the thing.
Ps: Thank you for discussion. I'm on my way to bed now.
fly safe
Have a good night's sleep.
But...
...if prices dropped and you have to spend more time mining does it really matter if it's any easier? Anybody can do it now, which means more people will do it. Actually, with this forum thread in prominent view, probably a lot more players will try multiboxing ice. You make such a good case for how easy it is, after all.
What happens when blue ice sells for 74k per unit? 33k?
People keep on signing up to try Eve. Of those, we can statistially say some want to try mining. We can further say that some of them will be referred to the methodology being popularized in this very thread. That's statistics for you.
Those people will mine for twelve hours a day, too. They'll sell to the buy orders, too. Why shouldn't they? As you've so plainly elucidated, mining is easy and requires no real attention. Not only that but with all the recent changes to Eve, it's safer than ever to do so!
Which, at the end of the day, means even lower sale prices in the long-run. Unless people like The Wis wise-up and curtail their mining efforts, that is. Or unless CCP realize the folly of their ways and revert (or in some other way manage to fully undo) the barge and exhumer changes.
Either works. One is far less likely than the other, though.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2157
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Posted - 2013.02.04 21:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:In short, he is mining himself and all other ice miners (including those in the foreseeable future) into serious pay cuts. He is not mining himself pay cuts if he is still continuing to make additional total isk per account he adds. The isk per account ratio might drop, but Wis is still making more isk with 100 accounts then he is with 90. Only the solo miners and casuals suffer devaluation, as is the case with most forms of anti-PVP mechanics claimed to 'benefit' them.
I've seen his operation in-person. Many of his accounts remain docked in the station in the system where he mines. Rare is the occurrence of stumbling across The Wis using all of his accounts actively. So that deficit you mentioned in the ISK per account ratio actually hits him more than you may think.
That said, the truth is he feels the devaluation more than the solo or casual guy.
That's entirely because he's multiplying the devaluation by some number less than one hundred and then using the reduced proceeds to try to keep all one hundred accounts subbed.
The Wis is most certainly mining enough to even hurt The Wis.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2160
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Posted - 2013.02.04 22:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:
I've seen his operation in-person. Many of his accounts remain docked in the station in the system where he mines. Rare is the occurrence of stumbling across The Wis using all of his accounts actively. So that deficit you mentioned in the ISK per account ratio actually hits him more than you may think.
The truth is he feels the devaluation even more than the solo or casual guy.
That's entirely because he's multiplying the devaluation by some number less than one hundred and then using the reduced proceeds to try to keep all one hundred accounts subbed.
The Wis is most certainly mining enough to even hurt The Wis.
This explanation doesn't add up - even if Wis did push down the collective ice economy significantly, he could just not sell every chunk of ice he mines right way and continue using all of his mining accounts while stockpiling
No matter how you look at it, two things are true:
1) The product of any positive integer and 100 is exactly 100x greater than the product of that integer and one. That means The Wis feels the pain of devaluation 100x more than the little guy.
2) The Wis does not typically mine with all 100 accounts concurrently.
That means he feels the pinch of the ice product price drop even more when he tries to sub all of his 100 accounts using less than 100 accounts to earn that ISK with.
This seems pretty self-explanatory to me.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2162
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
The Wis wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:
I've seen his operation in-person. Many of his accounts remain docked in the station in the system where he mines. Rare is the occurrence of stumbling across The Wis using all of his accounts actively. So that deficit you mentioned in the ISK per account ratio actually hits him more than you may think.
The truth is he feels the devaluation even more than the solo or casual guy.
That's entirely because he's multiplying the devaluation by some number less than one hundred and then using the reduced proceeds to try to keep all one hundred accounts subbed.
The Wis is most certainly mining enough to even hurt The Wis.
This explanation doesn't add up - even if Wis did push down the collective ice economy significantly, he could just not sell every chunk of ice he mines right way and continue using all of his mining accounts while stockpiling No matter how you look at it, two things are true: 1) The product of any positive integer and 100 is greater than the product of that integer and one. That means The Wis feels the pain of devaluation 100x more than the little guy. 2) The Wis does not typically mine with all 100 accounts concurrently. That means he feels the pinch of the ice product price drop even more when he tries to sub all of his 100 accounts using less than 100 accounts to earn that ISK with. This seems pretty self-explanatory to me. Well I have a total of 145 accounts. 102 of them are mining and then I have eyes to watch other systems and other accounts I use for PVE PVP etc. Most of the time 95% of the guys mining are out in the belt. the other 5% are docking up and unloading.. True I can do more but using Frieghters to haul ice back to station but that would mean I need to cluster my guys together and jetcan and that would make for an easy gank so not wise.
Strange. Any time me or my corporation come to the system where you mine, it seems to be more like 60-70 of your accounts docked with none in the belts. This persists at least as long as we are there.
I cannot presume that we are alone in causing this behavior.
I know for a fact you have to make due with less than 100 accounts mining full-time.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Fatal Ascension
2162
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 02:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
The Wis wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Strange. Any time me or my corporation come to the system where you mine, it seems to be more like 60-70 of your accounts docked with none in the belts. This persists at least as long as we are there.
I cannot presume that we are alone in causing this behavior.
I know for a fact you have to make due with less than 100 accounts mining full-time. Yea.. Ok. yea.. you got me there is no one anyone can ever mine with more then 10 to 20 guys.. Just can not be done. I might sujest getting your eyes checked maybe. Just kidding.
I'm sure you don't understand now, so I'll apologize and then explain.
I am sorry for not being straightforward.
My corporation has smartbombed you with success in the past. When we enter Agal now, you dock up. All of your accounts. They stay that way until we leave. In your absence, we settle for ganking less savvy miners and moving on. However, you are definitely in-station with 60-70 of your Mackinaw pilots (and undoubtedly at least one mining capital) during our ganks.
I assume other corporations have also successfully ganked you. For this reason, I also assume you dock up if and when they enter Agal, as well. I assume this because the game supports a personal and corporate standings setting for individuals as well as corporations. I'm fairly certain, good sir, that we are red.
So what I'm saying is that you dock up to stay safe, which is smart. But it still means you're docked with a bunch of accounts.
He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller.
-Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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